Two coyotes attacked my fat border collie tonight. Advice please!

[opie744]

Our border collie has the run of our land and at night sleeps on our front porch. This evening I heard her jump off and started to bark her alarm bark. Then I heard her yipping and fighting w/ something. I got the door open to find two coyotes fighting her and they had her down. She was definely losing. Of course I started yelling at them and her and they started running off(not scared of me, just leaving as they had been interrupted), my brainless dog got up and started running after them. Once they went pass the road she stopped and came back....
She is fat, about 15 lbs over weight but she isn't in bad health or hurt or weak, Why on earth would they attack her? The house light was on and they were fighting almost at my front door. Of course, once again, I'm the only one home, they always visit when the husband is gone. I swear they can smell my fear of being here alone, of course I'm kidding. But on the non-kidding end, I was under the understanding that they were small game hunters. Has anyone encounter this? Of course when my husband is trying to bait them in, they never come. This is the 4th sighting in 2 weeks, why are they moving now?? Any hunters out there w/ advice?? I have small children and I have to say that they have my mommy radar going off BIG time...

[Ranchman]

Coyotes do not just go after rabbits and such - they will attack larger animals. Many a rancher has lost livestock from coyotes. See this link (http://texnat.tamu.edu/ranchref/predator//coyote/t-coyote.htm) -- Warning - the topic within the link labeled "Photos on Identifing Coyote Predation" are graphic.

Although coyote attacks on humans is extremely rare, it DOES happen occasionally - see example at this link. (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/Coyote_attacks_040609-1.html) Small children are more vulnerable than older ones or adults, although that has happened in the past too. Pets? LOTS of pets get taken out by coyotes.

Hunter suggestions? .223 works well, although any rifle of equivalent or greater energy should work fine. (.17 HMR and .22 Mag are not sufficient in my book). A standard distressed rabbit call has worked well for me in the past. Just a piece of advise here - don't let the girls play with the call - it's not a toy. Yea it makes some funny squeaky sounds but those sounds are designed to attract a coyote and that's the last thing you want to do unless you are prepared to "dispatch" them. Not sure about the hunting methods your husband used. Although curious by nature, coyotes are a lot smarter and more cautious than one might think. If they see him or smell him, they will most likely not come in.

Keep your dog in doors if at all possible until the coyote problem is solved or you run the risk of having her get in to another fight (and possibly loose.) Also, might wanna check that she is up on her rabies shot.

[egon]

You have received good advice. Coyotes are very clever and can survive well near humans.

Keep the dog in as the coyotes will be back.

Try not to leave anything edible around that would attract more coyotes.

Egon

[opie744]

Her rabies is up to date, we take care of that every spring. Hadn't thought of that, thanks. It still freaks me out this morning and throat still hurts from yelling.

[Stoneheartfarm]

We notice they start moving around here this time of year, too. Often we can hear the pups yipping while being taught to hunt, and we had one howling under the bedroom window about a week ago. Whether they will bother a dog, sheep, calf, colt, child, etc. depends on opportunity and how hungry they are.

Steve

[opie744]

My husband is going to make big strides to TERMINATION! ( Can you guess what generation we grew up in?) Hopefully sucessful. He said that attacking our fat farm dog is too far. We were glad to see both the cats too. They are all outside animals.

[Pat]

The coyotes are just doing what coyotes do. You can do whatever you think you need to do. Karate lessons and a fitness program for the dog? Unfortunately many folks move to a rural location expecting a Disney theme park with animatronic inhabitants. Your ancestors didn't fight there way to the top of the food chain by taking anything off of coyotes!

When I lived in San Diego lots of coyotes lived inside the city limits, especially in the canyons of which there are many. We had frineds have their dog snatched off the back porch in the middle of the day in a crowded residential area. Soft city dogs are essentially a hot meal for a coyote or two.

Interesting report concerning coyote attacks on humans. I'll have to research that. I was told that contrary to all the fiction ("Call of the Wild" etc.) and scary stories that there was no verifiable case of a human death from wolf attack in either the US or N. America, I forget which. I'll have to check that too.

I beg to differ regarding the .17 mag and .22 mag. They are quite capable of killing a coyote, especially at short to medium range when there is not grass, leaves, twigs, etc. in the way. You need more bullet mass to make it through any obstructions. My 22-250 can explode a coyote but will disintegrate into a puff of dust if it hits more than a spider web enroute.

Good luck solving the coyote problem. They are very crafty. Even if you kill a couple, you never know when another will wander by and possibly injure or kill your pet. There is no real way to be sure a free roaming dog will be safe unless that dog is enough of a fighter to disuade the coyote. If you have much of a coyote population, that dog needs an enclosed area with coyote proof fencing. Otherwise you are just playing Russian roulettee with yoiur pets life.

I wish you the best of luck,

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Pat]

Wolf and coyote attack update:

Apparently there were lots of wolf attacks on people in 1700's and 1800's in the US. In more modern times wolf attacks have essentialy ceased in the US but continue sporadically in Canada.

A chunk of info from a site specializing in attacks...

Coyote attacks on people are extremely rare. There have been a small number of attacks on people in the U.S. and Canada, with most of the attacks involving small children under 5 years of age. Since 3 million children are bitten by dogs every year, your small child is millions of times more likely to get hurt by the family pet than by a coyote.

Google searches indicate small, weak, or less capable dogs are coyote lunch on the hoof awaiting an encounter.

Wash State Dept of Fish and Wildlife recommendatons:

To lessen the risk of conflict with coyotes, WDFW wildlife managers offer these suggestions:

* Keep pet food and water inside.
* Keep pets inside or confined securely in a kennel or covered exercise yard.
* Do not feed wildlife on the ground; keep wild bird seed in feeders designed for birds, elevated or hanging above ground, and clean up spilled seed from the ground; coyotes can either be drawn directly to the seed, or to the rodents drawn to the seed.
* Keep fruit trees fenced or pick up fruit that falls to the ground.
* Do not feed feral cats; coyotes prey on the cats and feed on cat food left out for them.
* Minimize groundcover vegetation near children's play areas to avoid attracting rodents and small mammals that will in turn attract coyotes; keep clusters of shrubs, trees and other cover and food plants away from buildings and children's play areas.
* Use noise-making devices when coyotes are seen. Check with local authorities regarding noise and weapons ordinances.
* Be assertive in attitude and behavior towards coyotes that are not showing normal fear of humans.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[egon]

A .22 long rifle will kill a coyote at 75 yards if properly placed. It's been done more than once.

Egon

[opie744]

We have two girls that are 3 yrs, the girls come in as soon as dusk arrives. We are seeing coyotes during the day, for the girls, of course a mother is always worried. I know the odds are very small for an attack on them, but as a parent we are taking steps make that % smaller.
We are putting the dog in at night(she isn't sick or small, just fat. We think it is an territory thing. There are 5 KNOWN coyotes in our area.) and unfortunely our cats are going to have to play survival of the fittest. Even if we could find the cats, they won't stay in.
My husband isn't going to let our homestead area be a lunch buffet for some coyote, if he comes back for a second helping hes going to get lead poisoning. We realise that we can't control All 98 ac. here but we will keep the 5 ac around the house a safe zone as much as we can.
I don't live in Disney world here and frankly don't want to. I love the hard work my farm causes me and am proud of the fruits we produce.
There are two sides of the coin.....

[beenthere]

Probably your collie has been invading the 'territory apparent' of the coyotes and they are just trying to defend that territory. The best one wins. Now the dilema is to figure out how long you let the battle go on. Tie up and protect the collie, or try to take out the coyote(s). I find coyotes are always on the move, and are hard to get a good bead on them with a rifle, or even a shotgun, for that matter. Had one stalking my turkey decoy, and had a bead on it, but didn't shoot. Too afraid I would chase away a Tom turkey while doing it. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

IMO, letting dogs run isn't a good idea, as they tend to form packs and can be more lethal to farm animals (and even children) than wild animals. And, yes, even the docile family pet can become one of the 'gang'. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif Had it happen.

[Pat]

Not to be an alarmist and be characterized as a "Chicken Little" but I recommend you read some of the material available from a Google search on the topic of coyote attacks on humans, especially children. You don't want to be a prisoner in your own home but you don't want to risk a child either. Did yo see the MEryl Streep movie where she portrayed the mother of a child carried off by dingoes? A true story.

As more folks move into the coyote's territory the rules of engagement change. Ultimately there will be a clash and steps, offensive or defensive, will need to be taken, hopefully prior to a dreadful incident. A good question is what is reasonable and prudent. The odds of a residential structure located at "ground zero" of "Tornado Alley" in Oklalhoma (essentially where I am writing this) sustaining significant structural damage (likely to harm occupants significantly) is on the order of once in 4000 years as per the severe storm folks in the National Weather Service's severe weather ouitfit in Norman, Oklahoma. I wanted a safe room in the new house we are building. Over reacting? Obviously, I don't think so. The liklihood of such an event is low but if it happens, the results are catastrophic so I believe the prudent person prepares.

Same deal with coyotes. I'd be prepared. Clearly it is not practical to keep children indoors ALL THE TIME nor to have an adult accompany them all the time.

Shooting a couple coyotes isn't a good solultion either. It may make you feel better as we usually think it is better to do something than nothing. Consider bailing the Titanic with a thimble. Would it help? Coyotes are mobile. As you remove threat units additional ones will diffuse into the area to fill the niche of those you remove. You likely will not make a serious dent in the coyote population. Typically nature provides more coyotes than can support themselves adequately. Removing a small percentage allows others who might have not made it a chance to make it. Total number of surviving coyotes hardly changes.

Wholesale slalughter on a large scale by systemetic poisoning over large areas has worked in some instances to really make a dent in coyote populations. Then of course there are "blooms" of various prey species like rabits and rats and mice etc.

I would personally feel much more comfortable with a tall coyote proof fence around an area large enough to contain the play activities of the kids. Puppies and kittens would be safe in there too. I'm not trying to prevent your shooting coyotes. I am not a member of PETA. I just don't think you'll get the results you need beyond primal satisfaction of KILLING the offender.

As more and more city folk move into the country the dynamics of the interaction between coyotes and humans is changing, perhaps enough to warrant considering different solutions than were employed decades ago.

I built the safe rooms because this year could be the year or next or the next.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Ranchman]

Pat -

I agree with your point about it not affecting the long term ecological balance of the area, I think you are a bit over the top in saying that the only real benefit of eliminating the coyotes that are apparently making a habit of coming close to the home is that of satisfying "primal satisfaction."

If those particular habitual coyotes no longer exist (i.e. they’re dead), the coyotes in question can no longer attack the dog or potentially attack the kids. Doesn't prevent other coyotes from coming up in the future nor does it change the long term ecological balance of the area, but it does effectively address the immediate issue effectively.

As far as the .22 mag / .17 Hornaday Rimfire Magnum not being up to what I believe are ethical/practical typical for my experience, well, thanks, but I'll stick to my "guns" on that too. Never said you couldn't kill a coyote with either round - said that they "are not sufficient in my book."

Just because plenty of deer have been poached with .22 LR over the years doesn’t make that cartridge "appropriate" for deer hunting. I am NOT unique in this aspect - LOTS of debate on the shooting boards about the ethics/effectiveness of shooting coyotes with either of these cartridges (the .17 HMR more so than the .22 Mag, but they are both debated on a regular basis.) Could either the .22 Mag or the .17 HMR take out a coyote? Yup - no doubt. However, since pelts are not the issue here, because shot placement becomes more critical with these rounds as compared to other alternatives, and range is limited (again, as compared to others) while I would certainly take either over a sharp stick, neither would be my first choice for hunting coyotes.

[egon]

Introduce Wolves. They will definetly aid in coyote reduction. Their reintroduction to Yellowstone change the ecology of the entire area for all the animals and some of the birds.

Egon /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Pat]

Ranchman, Please don't get upset with me over shades of grey. I don't advocate long range varmint shooting with a .22 (except 22's like mine, 22-250 or the 220 Swift or similar.) I thought the issue I was addressing was coyotes close enough to the house to attack a child in which case I too will "Stick to my guns." at close range my suppressed subsonic .22's are highly lethal to coyote sized animals.

If you mean ranges out at 100-200 yds then AGAIN we are in complete agreement, wrong boomstick. If you want to snipe varmints at long distances, really reach out ant touch some then the .22 rimfires, magnum included are not in the top 10 to 20 choices. I agree that the "new" .17 is not a long range round either. Didn't claim that. I claim it is lethal to coyote sized animals... at reasonable ranges.

Ethics? I have never and would never intentionally shoot to wound an animal nor would I intentionally set out with a weapon incapable of humanely disatching the intended "victim" at the ranges I expected to shoot. I didn't intend to discuss, in my previous post, any recommendatons for a planned varminting session. I just said the .22 and .17 were adequate to kill a coyote and they are. I would never advocate them as the weapon of choice for doing it at great distances where their ballistics render them marginally capable of yielding the performance needed for a reasonble expectation of a "clean" kill.

If the shooter has the opportunity to shoot a coyote at close range due to the coyote being too "familliar" with people (often a precursor to attacks) or if the shooter is clever enough to draw the coyote in to his "kill zone" then I personally wouldn't fault him for using the .22 if the shooter had the skill to reasonably expect to place the shot in a lethal manner. Otherwise, I too recommend MORE GUN. There is a big difference between long range sniping and using the gun as an alternative to "hand to hand combat."

I'm not sure what you intended with your deer poaching remarks.

I don't advocate poaching. I don't advocate deer hunting with inadequate firepower. I didn't actually advocate varminting with a .22. I think the spirit or intent of my comment was that if the coyote were there and you had a .22 and opportunity to use it efectively, it could do the job. I don't advocate a runninig shot at 200 yds but stopped or moving warily in at say 25 yds would make for a DEAD coyote with a reasonably skilled shooter. If the dog and coyote were in a fur ball then caliber isn't the issue, its shot placement.

The value of shooting a very small percentage of the coyotes within roaming range of your property is minimal beyod primal satisfaction. If on the other hand you or a neighbor feeds them on purpose or accidently (food left out for pets etc.) and they have lost their aversion to human scent and prescence then removing those individuals and changing the feeding regime are both good ideas. Just shooting a small percentage of the local coyotes at random isn't a solution, just a "feel good."

If the coyotes wore "colors" or could otherwise be identified at a distance so we'd know which ones were habitual, that would help. All coyotes are oportunistic feeders, quite clever, and learn quickly how to take advantage of an easy meal whether it is the family pet, pet food, or whatever. You need to take care that you aren't helping to create nuisance coyotes.

I personally have about the same policy for coyotes as I do for poisonous snakes. I do not intentionally seek them out to kill them. I know there are lots of them living on my property. I go out and about on my property armed. If I encounter a poisonous snake, I dispatch it as humanely and quickly as I can. I cary a magazine loaded with snake shot. If I'n not close enough for a clean kill then the snake isn't a danger to me. I'm not the world's best off hand pistol shot. If the coyote is too far for a good shot then he isn't a threat to me. So far I have never shot at one while just out and about on my property. If I suffered predation of any of my animals then I'd probably change policy accordingly. If any actually threatened a human on my property I'd likely change policy.

If I kept a dog that was incapable of defending itself in an environment where that was entirely likely to be required then I would consider myself at fault, not the coyote. Coyotes are natural preditors. They eat things to live. They prefer easy kills. It is altogether reasonable to expect that if we offer them an easy hot meal on 4 legs that they will take it. To blame that on the coyote is just wrong headed. We need to protect ourselves, our children and fat stupid pets from harm if we care. Killing every conceivable threat isn't reasonable. Taking prudent measures to protect our kids and pets can include coyote proof fences as well as removing "habituated" animals who frequently approach too close.

Armadillos carry leprosy. It is endemic in their population. Kill the armadillos.

Mosquitos can carry a number of diseases, and do. Not only West Nile Virus. Killing a couple mosquitos that happen to land in plain sight on your arm or hover by your ear will not solve the problem. Reasonable responses include controlliing their access to breeding environments. Wholesale trapping with "mosquito magnet" type devices, installing a number of bat boxes to attract a very significant natural predator, and use a good repellant (permethrin and time release microsphere encapsulated DEET.)

Well, ranchman, I don't think we are realy that far apart in our thinking, more a matter of degree than diametric opposition.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Ranchman]

Pat-

<font color="blue">I thought the issue I was addressing was coyotes close enough to the house to attack a child in which case I too will "Stick to my guns." </font color>

.22 mag / .17 HMR for "close quarters combat." Let's see - based on our little scenario we’ve created my pet or my child is being attacked (or under immediate threat of being attacked) by a coyote at close range and I could use (a) a .17 HMR, (b) a .22 Mag, or (c) a .223 (with ~4X the muzzle energy.) Hmmm, I love my pets and my kids, but gosh dern it, that little 'ol .17 will work under the "right" circumstances. /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif Uhhhh, no thanks - hand me the AR.

<font color="blue">I'm not sure what you intended with your deer poaching remarks. </font color>

My point was that the .22LR is a ballistically inappropriate cartridge to use for deer hunting although it has been proven to be "effective" at killing deer under the "right" circumstances. Poaching/illegal hunting is where this data comes from. (it is illegal to hunt deer in Texas with a rimfire no matter what.) I see a parallel with your apparent suggestion that the .17 HMR or .22 Mag are "effective" at killing coyotes under the "right" circumstances even though in my (and many others) estimation they are not ballistically appropriate for such a hunt. (Again, an often debated topic on the gun boards.) Funny - Can't ever recall anyone claiming that .223 wasn't "enough gun" for a coyote on those same boards.

There is another aspect about choosing the .17 HMR or .22 Mag over the .223 that makes it even more "inappropriate" in my estimation. Sure, drawing them in to &lt;75 yards to "ensure" (again, debatable) a relatively effective shot with one of those two cartridges might be fun. But we aren't hunting for fun here, we're hunting to eliminate habitual predators that are going after our pets and that are a potential danger to our children. The .223 will allow you to "reach out and touch" those habitual coyotes much further out than either the .17 HMR or .22 Mag, and if we are making a specific effort to eliminate those particular coyotes, they may be more hesitant to come in close if they suspect they are being hunted.

<font color="blue">I think the spirit or intent of my comment was that if the coyote were there and you had a .22 and opportunity to use it efectively, it could do the job. </font color>

What I saw was someone (myself) recommending .223 (or higher energy cartridge) for effectively hunting coyotes and that .17 HMR / .22 Mag were not appropriate for ethical hunting or a "self defense" situation against them. On the flip side I saw someone else (you) saying that essentially the .17 HMR / .22 Mag are indeed appropriate and up to the task for hunting coyotes. It may not have been, but it sure sounded like advocation to me.

<font color="blue">To blame that on the coyote is just wrong headed. We need to protect ourselves, our children and fat stupid pets from harm if we care. Killing every conceivable threat isn't reasonable. </font color>

Who's blaming the coyote? Who advocated killing every conceivable threat? All I ever advocated was the effective and quick elimination of the specific habitual coyotes that are currently visiting the house with enough firepower to ensure an ethical and quick kill. I also stated that this would eliminate the immediate problem but would not solve it long term AND that you were over the top when it came to claiming that a position such as mine was just some type of bloodlust.

<font color="blue">Well, ranchman, I don't think we are realy that far apart in our thinking, more a matter of degree than diametric opposition. </font color>

Overall, I would agree - with one major difference. When it comes to shooting a predator that can maim or even kill my pets or children, I want to make sure I have much more energy, range, and knockdown power than you do. While I'm considered a "good shot," when it comes to the safety of my children I want additional ballistic advantage in my corner. Saying to yourself, "Well, maybe something instead of the .17HMR would work better" after Fido is dead or, heaven forbid, Junior is mauled, is worthless in my book.

[Stoneheartfarm]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone nearby you raised and released Pheasants? We have a neighbor that does that every few years, and our field fills with coyotes until all the birds are gone.

Steve

[theboman]

A 30.06 will mean the end to a coyote at 200 yards. It'll do the trick at 35 yards too. You can't have too much when dispatching a varmit.
A 12 guage with 00 buckshot at 30 yards on a full choke will also handle a coyote.

A farmer friend has goats. He just got a donkey to turn loose with the herd of goats. A coyote or dog won't mess much a donkey. They pack a deadly kick...

[opie744]

We do have several Pheasants in the area. Not sure if they were raised and let loose, but we did notice a few in the spring.

[Pat]

Well, I guess in the "more is better" approach maybe we should consider a semi-auto .50 BMG.

Oh by the way, I don't recall saying that any .22 rinfire magnum or otherwise or .17 would be my first choice, just that they could do the job at close ranges. I do believe I mentioned my 22-250. I really don't care what any boards may say, my 22-250 will take out a coyote most effectively. I'm still not entirely sure why we are discussing deer hunting or poaching but I would never recommend deer hunting with a 22-250, although it could kill a deer or elk or griz or velociraptor (under the right circumstances.)

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Ranchman]

<font color="blue">Well, I guess in the "more is better" approach maybe we should consider a semi-auto .50 BMG. </font color>

Comparing a .223 to a .50BMG. Now you're just being silly and going off the deep end. That's like saying if someone recommends a .45ACP or .40S&amp;W for a self defense carry gun over a .25ACP they are being unreasonable and since "more is better," they should be recommending something like a .454 Casull. Come on Pat....


<font color="blue">I really don't care what any boards may say, my 22-250 will take out a coyote most effectively. </font color>

Who said otherwise? I said there is plenty of debate about the .17HMR / .22Mag being adequate for coyotes...


<font color="blue"> I'm still not entirely sure why we are discussing deer hunting or poaching </font color>

You're being purposefully difficult. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

(1) I **NEVER** said you, I, or ANYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD advocated illegal hunting/poaching.

(2) Egon essentially made the same point I did - that a comparatively ballistically weak cartridge (i.e. .22LR) can kill. The only addition I made to his point was that just because you can kill something with a ballistically inferior cartridge doesn't mean you should.

Poaching/Illegal hunting IS SIMPLY AN EXAMPLE where the .22LR (e.g. comparatively weak cartridge ballistically speaking) has been proven to kill game for which any reasonable person (and in this case, the State of Texas as well) would say it is totally inadequate.

Can a .22LR kill a deer: <font color="green"> YES. </font color>
Should you use a .22LR to kill a deer (even if it was legal): <font color="red">NO. </font color>

Can a .17HMR/.22Mag kill a coyte: <font color="green">YES. </font color>
Should you use a .17HMR/.22Mag to kill a coyote (especially under the circumstances outlined in this thread): <font color="red">NO. </font color>

Don't think I can make my point any more clear or draw a more obvious parallel than that.

[Pat]

I think I understand some of the part Egon explained. Maybe you could give me a little more detail regarding the .223.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Ranchman]

.223 - w/ 55 gr. bullet: ~ 3,100 fps, ~1,200 ft/lbs (muz)

.22-250 - w/ 55 gr. bullet: ~ 3,600 fps, ~1,600 ft/lbs (muz)

[egon]

Hey; My name was mentioned?

In my life I have shot at two coyotes. Two shots only. One at 75 yards. The other at 50 yards. Both times a Whiz-Bang .22 long rifle was used. Both coyotes died on the scene.

At no time did I think I was undergunned.

My father had a 25/35 winchester that was used to shoot moose. Clearly a very underpowered rifle by todays standards. If I recall correctely it brought down all the Moose it was aimed at plus a few elk. He later upgraded to a sporterized .303 army rifle.

Egon

[Pat]

Ranchman, I shot very little factory ammo. My most accurate handloads chrono consistently at just a hair over 4000fps with 52 grain hollow points. This is more energy than your example.

I didn't do nearly as much with 55gr but I did work up a load that was good enough for "large targets" that was still better than factory but I don't recall the velocity. I think it was only a hundred or two faster than factory. It too was a bit more energy than your example but not enough to shout about.

I zero at 200yds and have less than 3/4 inch rise at 100yds but the "light" hollowpoint is down about 4 1/2 in at 300 yds. Makes for a challenge on small targets at ranges varying between 250-300 yds without using a LASER ranger. Of course large standing still, coyote sized, targets aren't a problem.

I recommend the 22-250 for its flat trajectory due to high velocity for a given projectile weight. It is NOT good for shooting through weeds, grass, leaves, or the like. You need an unobstructed shot. A good alternative is a 220 swift but ammo is not universally available. For better brush penetration, you just about have to move up to at least a .243 or so. Color me old fashioned but I like the 25-06.

I have a report from a reliable source (friend) who saw a young African lion attacking a steer. Folks "DUMP" every other unwanted pet out here from kittens to emus, why not an exotic like a lion? Now what sort of "varmnt" gun is needed, a double riflle in nitro express?

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Ranchman]

Egon -

<font color="blue">At no time did I think I was undergunned. </font color>

I thought your were making a good point....until you clarified it.

If a .22LR is all you have, it is certainly better than nothing, but if you are advocating actively hunting a coyote with a .22LR, then that's just plain wrong. You’re telling me that if your child is under imminent threat of attack by a coyote, you’d CHOOSE to defend their well being with a .22LR because you never felt "undergunned" using one against a coyote in the past? Risking the life and limb of your child to prove some machismo point about how "small" a cartridge you can kill a coyote with…. Ugh…..


Pat -

<font color="blue">My most accurate handloads chrono consistently at just a hair over 4000fps with 52 grain hollow points. This is more energy than your example. </font color>

There are 77 maximum loads for the .22-250 as found in my most recent handload manual. I chose one with a popular weight bullet (in both the .223 and the .22-250) simply to give a comparative "apples to apples" example. I didn't question your request for .223 info outright, although it seems odd since you should have access to the same info in your load books that I do.

While there are certainly other variables to consider (case wall thickness, etc.), if you are indeed shooting over 4000 fps for a 52 gr bullet in your .22-250, you should make sure you are not above any of the maximum loads for powder as that velocity is well above what I can find in any of my load books (maximum I can find is 3841 from a 1987 Speer Manual). I follow the ammo mfgs. advise and stay at or below their maximum powder charges in all of my loads. If you’re doing the same and still getting those velocities, that’s one thing. If you’re not, well, it’s your risk to take.


<font color="blue">I have a report from a reliable source (friend) who saw a young African lion attacking a steer. Folks "DUMP" every other unwanted pet out here from kittens to emus, why not an exotic like a lion? </font color>

While certainly possible, I find that a highly unlikely. Are you sure your friend didn’t see a mountain lion? They are certainly present in OK and could be confused for a "young" African lion without the mane.

<font color="blue">Now what sort of "varmnt" gun is needed, a double riflle in nitro express? </font color>

As far as defending myself or my child against an African lion - I don’t have anything in Nitro Express. If one wandered up and were trying to make lunch out of Fido or Jr., you’re dern tootin’ I’d choose the biggest thing I have and certainly wouldn’t choose a .17HMR or .22Mag. unless those were the only guns/cartridges I had at my disposal.

Suggesting that anyone who chooses a "reasonable" cartridge (such as .223) to kill a coyote that is attacking their child is somehow "overgunned" or that such an individual is trying to play "Rambo" is wrong - and missing the point. We’re talking about defending the health and well being of CHILDREN here folks. I find all this bravado regarding "getting away" with using a "small" cartridge so one could "brag" about how small a gun one used to stop an animal who is potentially HARMING THEIR CHILD disturbing at best.

I never suggested using something ridiculous like a .50 BMG for hunting coyote, yet I was stereotyped as being some type of "ballistic nut" for suggesting a cartridge (.223) that is commonly used for hunting them and generally agreed on at large as having "adequate" energy, range, and knockdown power to ensure a humane and "quick" kill. Like it or not, there is plenty of debate regarding the "effectiveness" of the .17HMR/.22Mag for coyotes. (And not just from me.) This same debate doesn't exist with the .223.

I’ve offered my opinion on what I feel would be an appropriate cartridge based on my experience. Some would choose something larger based on the seriousness of the situation (imminent attack upon a child) - some would choose smaller. So be it. You defend your family and your pets as you see fit and I will do the same. Hopefully if any child is unlucky enough to be under such an attack and you are the only one there to defend them, they will be lucky enough to survive unscarred and you can tout your marksmanship ability and prowess with a cartridge such as the .17HMR/.22Mag/.22LR. Me? I'm more worried about the safety of the child than my own vanity concerning hunting prowess - but that's just me.

[opie744]

Thanks for all of the opinions. My husband and I stand that we are humans w/ basic instincts, threaten me or my family or my property, you must go. If its another person, we'll ask you to leave, if its a critter that talking to just won't work, we'll do what we have to do.
When I made this post, my husband and I knew HOW we were going to take care of things, like most farmers before us, by taking them out. He hadn't hunted coyotes before and was hoping for good tips or advice. Because advice from real-life people we find very reliable. For those of you that did thanks, and for anymore that come, thank you also.
I understand everyone has a different point of view, I'll respect yours if you repect ours.

[egon]

Darned if I can remember about points Ranchman, think they were solid point not hollow but so far it's been two shots two coyotes. Guess I'm still at 100 % accuracy.

Egon /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Pat]

Ranchman, I'm sorry you are taking all this OVER SERIOUSLY and feel the need to cary it to such lengths. Really, I don't think Egon or I were advocating that a .22 rimfire or a .17 was the weapon of choice for someone intentionally hunting coyote. We aren't trying to make you seem ridiculous or extreme for making positive remarks regarding a .223 for that purpose.

I'm sure if you take a deep breath and think about it unemotionally for a moment you will reconsider any remarks you have made that insinuate either of us have a callous disregard for child safety are excessive.

I confess that your response(s) can be a source of humor. I, for one, did try to inject some slight degree of humor into the exchange but it didn't seem to "take."

Ballistic nut? Hardly. I don't see where you got the idea that either of us thought ill of you prior to the following comments.

I don't think the following comment of yours is fair and reasonable based on what either of us said and the context in which it was said.

"I find all this bravado regarding "getting away" with using a "small" cartridge so one could "brag" about how small a gun one used to stop an animal who is potentially HARMING THEIR CHILD disturbing at best."

Likewise this quote:

"Hopefully if any child is unlucky enough to be under such an attack and you are the only one there to defend them, they will be lucky enough to survive unscarred and you can tout your marksmanship ability and prowess with a cartridge such as the .17HMR/.22Mag/.22LR. Me? I'm more worried about the safety of the child than my own vanity concerning hunting prowess - but that's just me."

Ahh what a "good job", all the requisite elements, righteous indignation, selflessness, child welfare...

I'm sorry but most of your protestations are excessive and many are countering statements that didn't REALLY say what you claim.

No one has made a pitch for purposely endangering any child or advocating any action that is patently unsafe. No one has come close to trying to secure "bragging" rights for saving a child by a thin margin of ballistic sufficiency through the application of their superhuman marksmanship directed by steady nerves in a time of peril. Geesh!

The way I remember it a couple comments were made regarding the fact that a .22 rimfine will kill a coyote and SHAZAM!!! we are off to the races.

I do not have any problem with your basic thesis. You are RIGHT. I know that, Egon knows that, EVERYONE knows that. There really isn't any NEED to go to great lengths to DEFEND yourself as you aren't being attacked. I confess again to attempting to inject a bit of humor, here and there, such as the double rifle in nitro express.

I felt as you did regarding the African lion but the responsible party is not subject to hysteria, has seen several examples of mountain lions AND African lions, claims to know the difference, and insists it was an African lion. There are a lot of exotic pet owners, many have BIG CATS. Folks do release "inconvenient" animals. Also there are "wild animal" parks near here from which such a beast could escape as well.

I have previously been accused of trying to put out a fire by dousing it with gasoline but I hope this isn't one of those times.

By the way, did I mention that I think you cold kill a coyote with a slingshot?


/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[LazyJ_Arabians]

Not that I'd give a flip if a coyote ever became a nuisance on my property, but Arkansas has a six month season on coyotes with required hunting license and daily limit 2. Back when I occasionally went after them for sport you had to use 22 rim but now they allow up to 30 cal.

Even at our hunting camp which is 14 miles from the nearest electricity, I haven't seen a coyote in 10 years. Not sure why surrounding states have so many and we have so few. Plenty of Tyson chickens for them to eat and no wolves or mt lions to eat them. Maybe coyotes are Republicans?

[Ranchman]

Pat -

<font color="blue"> I'm sorry you are taking all this OVER SERIOUSLY and feel the need to cary it to such lengths. </font color>

When talking about the safety of a child in the scenario as laid out in this thread, I do not believe one can be too serious. We’re talking about a REAL mother with REAL kids - not some academic exercise but REAL PEOPLE. That makes a difference.

<font color="blue">I'm sure if you take a deep breath and think about it unemotionally for a moment you will reconsider any remarks you have made that insinuate either of us have a callous disregard for child safety are excessive. </font color>

I saw you and Egon going on about how a .17HMR/.22Mag/.22LR is "plenty ‘o gun" to hunt coyotes. Considering the subject (defense of a child), that in itself illustrates a callous disregard for child safety by failing to consider the potential consequences of using such a small round.

<font color="blue">Ahh what a "good job", all the requisite elements, righteous indignation, selflessness, child welfare... </font color>

So be it - at least it’s sincere.

<font color="blue">No one has come close to trying to secure "bragging" rights for saving a child by a thin margin of ballistic sufficiency through the application of their superhuman marksmanship directed by steady nerves in a time of peril. Geesh! </font color>

Re-read Egon's last response. Even if it is "tongue-in-cheek" it sure comes across as bragging about marksmanship abilities with an inferior cartridge.

<font color="blue">I felt as you did regarding the African lion but the responsible party is not subject to hysteria, has seen several examples of mountain lions AND African lions, claims to know the difference, and insists it was an African lion. </font color>

I’m not saying your friend is purposefully lying about it (although that is a possibility) - he may very well believe that’s what he saw, but without any direct evidence (police report, photos, newspaper headlines, etc.), I'm sure you will understand my reluctance to take such a story at face value.

<font color="blue">The way I remember it a couple comments were made regarding the fact that a .22 rimfine will kill a coyote and SHAZAM!!! we are off to the races. </font color>

The way **I** remember it a mother, concerned for the safety of her children, asked for hunting tips - upon which I stated that certain cartridges were unsuitable in my opinion. Three posts later (by you) you’d insulted the original poster saying she was unrealistic and wanted to live in a "Disney Land" and insulted me (and her) by saying the only reason to kill a problem coyote is some revenge based version of bloodlust we have. Funny how different people will take away entirely different things from the exact same wording...

<font color="blue">I do not have any problem with your basic thesis. You are RIGHT. I know that, Egon knows that, EVERYONE knows that. There really isn't any NEED to go to great lengths to DEFEND yourself as you aren't being attacked. </font color>

Fine - if that’s your "official position" now I’ll take it at face value and ignore my interpretation of your earlier comments.

The way I see it, this thread is now going nowhere fast. I propose we agree to end it now so we can avoid the inevitable continuation which would serve little purpose.

[Pat]

"Maybe coyotes are Republicans"

Never thought of that but they are very wiley, adaptable, have terrific family values and care well for their young but are often underappreciated for the service they provide in the natural scheme of things.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[GaryM]

Hi Hi!

[kensfarm]

I think one thing is being over looked...

"Of course when my husband is trying to bait them in, they never come."

"This is the 4th sighting in 2 weeks"

If he has baited them in the vicinity of the house.. they might start to associate human scent w/ food.. or def. the location w/ an easy meal.

I'm not sure of the best course.. maybe a call to DNR.. I'm sure they have prof. trappers/hunters for problems such as this.

If a coyote is hungry enough they will go after anything their size and if they are in a pack they will try and take down a cow. I have gotten alot of grief from people because I shoot every coyote on sight whether they are causing trouble or not. We've lost too many dogs, too many calves, and way too many cats to not shoot them every chance you get. They are not in any danger at all of becoming extinct.

[Boondox]

I'll echo what Richard said. We've had packs approach the house in the winter months trying to lure our dogs off the porch. Thank goodness the dogs have enough sense to recognize a setup when they see one! The sheep farm on the other side of our hill lost thirty animals, including full grown rams, to coyotes. And ditto; here on Luce Hill we have a shoot on sight policy. Show me a coyote within a quarter mile and that beautiful 6.5x55mm reaches out and touches them.

Pete

[beenthere]

Be wary of pet dogs getting into 'packs' to go on killing sprees.

Years back (not so many either) I lived in a farming community in central Iowa, and dogs from town would 'gather' either day or night and kill. One farmer after one night had 2 rendering trucks loaded with dead sheep, and several more trucks loaded with injured sheep to be sent in for slaughter (tankage is what they called it). In mid-day, dogs jumped into a pig pen and killed dozens of small weaned pigs. These were just family pet dogs.

Have more experiences that I could tell, but it's what can happen if family pets are allowed to run. Must conjure up something in there brains to get them to revert back to some latent behaviour. Usually if we could kill just one dog in the pack, it would break them up and stop them. Made for some wild and interesting 'night' hunts riding the roads at night just to intercept the dog packs.

First I have heard of coyote packs, but don't doubt that could happen as well. I know ours were dogs (big, little, and all breeds running together).

[Bird]

It's been 50 years now, but we had that problem in the Healdton, OK area back then. The dogs killed two horses that I know of personally; one of them mine, killed a hog, and attacked our milk cow, shredding one ear pretty badly before Dad ran them off, but the cow survived. Besides those of my personal knowledge, I heard of many other animals killed by them. There was a male black and tan hound and a slightly smaller, mixed breed reddish female (possibly some collie or retriever ancestry); sometimes just the two of them and sometimes with them leading a pack.

[Rebailey]

Opie, I had a gun shop for 15 years. The best weapon for you would be a 20-gauge shotgun with #4 buckshot. Not many people can shoot a rifle well enough to hit a snarling coyote at 20 feet. The shotgun will give you some room for error. Just be sure and not hit the dog.

[opie744]

The shotgun is our gun of choice.
We pen the bordercollie up now and she hasn't given us a problem going in to her pen since. Heard them howling tonight while I was putting all the animals in thier barns. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

[lynxpilot]

Was mentioned already, but the donkey idea is a good one, with one exception mind you. They have to be adapted to your domestic dog or will otherwise treat it like any other coyote looking critter. Donkey will run a coyote down and kick the snot out of it given the opportunity. It just seems more the natural course. I think the coyotes might just be lucky enough to stay away from your donkey and remain an integral part of the ecoculture without having to be shot because of encroachment by people.

[opie744]

Interesting idea, I must have missed that earlier. /forums/images/icons/blush.gif Then the only problem would be keeping the dog out of there. She has the run of the land during the day. Is that an instictive thing for the donkeys??

[lynxpilot]

GREAT LINK (http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/livestock/sheep/facts/donkey2.htm#Donkey%20Compatibility%20With%20Farm%2 0Dogs%20and%20People) from Canada.

ANOTHER (http://www.qis.net/~minidonk/guard.htm) from somebody who breeds 'guard' donkeys. Apparently it has some limitations and is not foolproof, but effective nonetheless. Guess it just depends on the donkey and the training. I'd give this one a call and see if they are compatible with dogs with the appropriate adaptation techniques.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[cole224]

i'd just add a bigger dog to your family. ours don't take any crap from any little coyote. but she has been snappin necks of critters for a while and knows our boundries and what to protect and what to get rid of. best of luck.

[mfaley]

Not that I am normally contrary....

But why kill them? We have them in abundance in our area and frequently have them in the yard and on our decks. When we are out, the dogs go with us. When we are not, they are penned in. If the dog cannot get out then they coyotes cant get in. We have most of our turn outs for the horses fenced with no climb so that is little problem. Almost nightly I can hear the coyotes pack up on a hunt or maybe just enjoying themselves. Personally I enjoy it and think they have as much right to be there as I do. I work to make sure I dont do things to attract them but dont hunt or bait them when they come by.
Most of the large ranches around us dont loose much in terms of livestock when looked at over a number of years and have stopped trying to exterminate them.

I used to think they should be hunted down but no longer. They help keep the rodent population down which helps keep the rattle snakes away.

Do we really need so much spirited debate over the best way to kill off something that, with a little proactive work, causes so little harm?
Mark

[egon]

RE: Coyotes in excess.

They do keep the rodent population down but in turn deprive hawks and owls of their food source.

Egon

[mfaley]

Egon,
good point and we do seem to have our share of owls and hawks as well.

If I am lucky, the owls will move over to our lawn and take out some of the gophers that are turning it into a 300 hole putting green. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Mark

[beenthere]

Certainly wouldn't want to kill those gophers either, would we? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[egon]

Nosiree; they make good target practice.

Egon /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[mfaley]

Well Gents....you continue plickin' away and we will just agree to disagree.

I am not opposed to hunting and certainly not the owning of firearms. I just dont see any reason for pulling the trigger on something that, in my opinion, is not doing any real harm.

Mark

[Tevi]

We use Great Pyrenese to keep the coyotes away.Works great

[theboman]

Back to the donkey and pet dog. A normal pet dog learns quickly about the donkey and will stay away. A coyote visiting has no clue on what about to happen... A turn and kick in the blink of an eye.

[Anjou]

My wife and I were visiting with a friend who is a caretaker for some Indian Land up in the mountains near Taos, NM, and one night I went out on a rock overlooking the valley and did my "Call of the Wild". I have some success in the past with imitating animal sounds. Once before I managed to enrage a bull that was 100 yards away with my mimicry. Fortunately, I was outside of the stout fence. Anyhow, I tried my luck with the coyotes and got about five seperate packs to respond in a short amount of time. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif I had a great time baying at the moon, until I realized that one of the pack was between me and the cabin. Being that I wasn't sure what message I was sending, I decided it was best to pipe down (being completely unarmed as I was).

[mfaley]

That would be interesting to try in our area. But, with my vocal dexterity I would only manage to shatter windows in the nieghborhood. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I dont think you would really have to worry too much about coyotes and a full grown adult unless your call to them was, perhaps, of an amorous nature /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif
/forums/images/icons/grin.gif
Mark

[jimbrown]

I do not have to call them they come every day to my back yard.

[Anjou]

That's the problem with mimicing animal calls... you don't really know what message you are sending. Obviously, I wasn't sending a pleasant message to the bull that I enraged.

[Giblet]

Here, here !! Responding to Mfaley's response of 3:31 !
We do have to try to keep some perspective on killing wildlife. Definitely, pests have to be dealt with but it should be a measured response. After all....like it or not.....we are the custodians. If you live in the wilderness ( not sure where original poster lives) &amp; you have kids...you bet you take what ever precautions are necessary but in this case (out in the wilds) I would agree with other posters is that you build some type of fenced in area. You have to try to live with nature not against it. You should not kill an animal just because it is trying to survive. Sure...if it becomes a problem &amp; thinks it is getting an easy meal then other appropriate steps will need to be taken last of least should be to think of the best bullet to use.

[brownmule]

for some crazy reason the goverment transpalnted coyotes here in wva! about 10 yrs ago to control the rabbit population. we have preditor cats out there , now we are over run by the coyotes killing farmers sheep/ goats baby cows.. what were thay thinking? wasnt the lady bugs they dump few years back enough? LOL Rose

[opie744]

I hear you Rose, seems like when the transplanting goes on things get messed up!

[AGH]

Hello, I am located in North East, Georgia. I own and operate "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels" My Hounds (Beagles) are ran in in Competition Fields trials all over the U.S. A. A number of years ago, a couple of my Prize winning hounds were attacked, here on my property. When I was out West, at a competition field trial, a friend out there advise, me to put a small goat bell on the collars of my hounds? ? Seems this bell ringing will kept the coyote from attacking the hounds when we hunting. I have been using them ever since, and havn't experanced any more problems. Just my experance!
Daddy Rabbit, Dixie land---------------------------------------------------

[opie744]

Hey thanks! I'll use that one. Where do you get your bells?

[mfaley]

AGH,
I am no expert and that might be true. However, all of our dogs tags are metal so we can hear them when we call them at night and I can say for sure that the clinking of dog tags do nothing, in my experience, to keep the coyotes at bay. Actually, I have often thought that taking the tags off so coyotes dont hear them might be better so they stealth around. Most of the time when coyotes pack up for a kill in our area it takes a human or other animals to send them on thier way.

Opie744,
You can get many different size cow bells at most good feed and tack stores. Some of them are as small as 2" tall

Mark

[AGH]

Bells can be bought at most Feed and seed Stores, if you can't find any out your way, this where I get my bells, they come in two sizes, a small, about 1.5 inches wide and a larger size about 2 inches wide, I use the small one on my females, and the larges size on my males. their phone # 800-221-4628 mailing address is : Hoegger Supply,160 Providence Ra., Fayetteville, Ga. 30215. You may also check this e-mail out: www.hoeggergoatsupply.com (http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com)
Hope you all Good Luck, and My god Bless. Daddy Rabbit

[Brimfield]

ok I know this is cruel but a live chicken with rat poison glued to it can help, tie it up outside . keep all pets in for this day. the best answer is noise, using a shot gun should scare any coyotes away. had some get on my acres and heard the yelp and barks. kept my barking dogs in (Labs) and fired a 10 gauge turkey gun in the path of the sound. no more yelps or coyotes

[Bayrat]

I believe they killed a beagle in my back yard last week. This dog runs every night, belongs to the "neighbor" out back that has never made an effort to stop her barking, or to introduce himself for that matter.

Last week we heard her usual howling but this time it was accompanied by the howl of a coyote or two. Within minutes, there was a distress howl from the beagle and then silence the rest of the night. I could not see where they were or I would have opened up on them. Even the wife feels bad, I have not found the body and the neighbors have not looked that I know of.

[Bayrat]

Looks as though they may have gotten my cat this morning. The wife let her out just after first light and she has not been back, very unusual particularly since it has rained all day.

I spotted two of them about a half hour after the cat went out, they were in the field in back of my house. Now I have to seek revenge.

[buck21]

ok now llamas are the best coyote protection you can get short of the rifle/shotgun.before we got ours coyote's were killing four lambs a week! /forums/images/icons/mad.gif so it was the only option for us but we have had it for a few months now and havent lost lambs so its working.i would get a llama personly it would give you some good protection and give your kids a really good laugh

[BlueRidge]

Finally! A REAL reason to buy a llama! I mean, other than the pyramid scheme of buying llamas so that other people will buy them...

[BobReeves]

Interesting thread especially after chasing one away that had one of our cats treed the other day. We are not really out in the country as we have housing developments all around us. Between us and 3 neighbors we have about 30 acres of open wooded property in the vicinity and this is the first coyote I have seen in the two years we have been here.

Wasn't 50 feet from the house and reading this thread gives me the willies. We have two semi house cats and a medium size dog that thinks she is a big dog. No fences and most often we just let the dog out on here own when nature calls. Have no doubt she wouldn't hesitate to take on a coyote and end up on the losing end.

I did get a shot at it but missed, been 40 years since I have done any shooting and jerked the trigger like an armature. He was only about 40 feet from me just standing there looking at me. Only rifle I have
is an old Winchester 22 LR bolt. Have no doubts it would have done the job if I hadn't screwed up. If I get another chance that sucker is history...

[opie744]

We live in constant attack mode, we saw six of them running through the property about a month ago. I took shots at them, but they are fearless /forums/images/icons/mad.gif . They stand there and look at you. I am terrible shot, my husband would have done better. This Spring target practice. Being in a housing area, I don't know an answer for you, We don't have another house for a full mile or more.

[tbolt]

I have shot and killed coyotes with a 22, 22mag., buckshot,
and my .270. I will grab the first thing in reach when I see one because I think they are a useless animal. I kill every one I see. I have a 22mag with a laser sight I use to shoot stray cats. I kill every one of those I see too. Coyotes were first seen in this area about 10 years ago and rumor has it that local fox hunters brought them in here to let their dogs run them. I believe the government released them in the lower counties of S.C. and parts of GA. for the control of deer population. Over the years they have raised and spread throughout the states. I have goats but my Great Pyranes keeps them guarded well but coyotes destroyed my watermelons and they have killed a few local newborn calves. Stray cats are useless animals also. They destroy quail, rabbits, and have no significant use to me at all. I don't mind buying rat poison for rats. I have a cat in the house that never goes outside, she's fairly useless but the wife sure loves her. I have shot deer with a 22magnum and killed them but I don't reccomend it because theres a big chance of it runing off and dying. I shot one or two in the head from my back porch and spine shot one once that I had to finish off in the head. My weapon of choice is the .270. Have made 300 yard deer kills and the coyotes don't usually have a chance either. .243 works really nice on deer and coyotes too and 30-06 or .300 mag. if you prefer will blast em away. Whatever you use please just kill em. My coon dogs treed the other night on the backside of a pasture, by the time we got to them the coyotes had faught them off the tree. I use tracking collars on my coon dogs and keep them tied or kenneled. I have a lot of animals that stay on my property and if they get loose and cause damage I take care of it. If a cat comes on my property that I don't know who it belongs to I take care of it also. If a hawk starts eating my chickens I take care of it too. I'm not an animal hater but I don't mind extinguishing useless varmints. This is merely my opinion, everyone has their own and I respect that. I don't wish to offend anyone whatsoever.

[opie744]

I'm not offended. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[dmccarty]

Its funny that this thread bounced back up.

About a month ago I heard some weird yelping noises most of the night. It ranged from the road up close to the house. It sounded like a wounded goose for want of a better discription. But we dont see geese around here. At one point I walked out on the porch with the dog. In the house she was not even stirring. Once out of the porch she started barking. And it was not a friendly bark.

I have heard the yelping off and on but not like the first time. Seems to start around midnight. And its always on the south side of the house.

Two weeks ago I walked out on the front porch with my daughter as we headed off to work and school. I heard/sensed something and looked to my right which is the south side of the house. Bounding along is a coyote. He saw us and troted off into the woods heading south. The coyote stopped once in the wood line. I took a couple steps back and motioned for my wife to come out. She stepped out of the front door and at the point the coyote ran off further into the woods to the south.

Since then I have heard the yelping, never howling, a couple of nights a week. Always on the south side of the house and around midnight.

I noticed at the start of hunting season that some of the young/small fawns had disappeared. It was hard to believe that a hunter would waste a round on the deer since they where so small. Me thinks they did not.

The problem with the coyote(s) is that they have come within 100 feet of the house. My kids play outside on the porch and in the yard. Their playset if farther away than 100 feet and pushed into the woods. My GSD has been behaving strangely at times, running from one side of the house to the other. She has not done this before. We have three sets of French doors with glass so she can see out of the house. We think the coyotes have been moving around the house. I am not sure but I think a coyote marked its territory in some gravel about 20 feet from the house.

The rifle is now ready to go. NC does not have a closed season on coyotes. Its a shame they have to go but they are too close to the house. If it was just me and my dog I would not worry about them. The dog could easily handle one or two of them and she is always around me in any case. But my kids are too small to not worry about the coyote(s).

I guess I'll call the WRC and see if I can legally light the coyote(s) at night and shoot them.

Later,
Dan

[opie744]

Thats the whole thing, its the kids. I mean, I don't want them getting my livestock or dog, but the real fear is the kids and how not scared they are of people. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

[buck21]

all they are doing is teaching their pups. and i have come face to face with one and im not sure but i don't belive they will go after kids UNLESS they are short on food, they feel threated for themselves or they pups, or are very sick, and feel cornered. now im not sure about this but i belive that is the main reasons they attack children

[Bird]

Dan, when we lived 60 miles south of Dallas, across the road from our place was all Corps of Engineers property around Navarro Mills Lake and was heavily wooded. At night we heard more of the coyotes yelping than we did of howling.

[dmccarty]

buck and opie,

If it was not for the kids Wiley could stay. If Wiley stayed away from the house maybe Wiley could stay. With the kids wanting to play outside and Wiley getting within sight of the house as well as not really running off when he saw us means Wiley has got to go. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

My dog is wherever I am when I'm at home. If I am inside she is inside. If I'm out working she is out with me. I'm not worried about her since I think she could hold her own with one or maybe two coyotes. And I know me and she can hold our own against a bunch of coyotes. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

But my kids can't. Wiley has got to go.

Next visit my dad will bring up one of his calls. I just got a DR Mower to help push the undergrowth away from the house and this has bumped up in priority on the south side of the house. Also the undergrowth near the playset has to go. I want to see if Wiley is trying to sneak in. In NC there is not closed season on coyotes. I need to call and see if I can shoot them at night and shine 'em.

I really would just like to leave 'em alone but its too risky for the kids.....

Later,
Dan

[dmccarty]

Bird,

If my neighbor's hear me, the nearest is maybe 2000 feet away, they are going to think I'm nuts. But I'm going to go outside one night with the dog and see what happens if we both start howling. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif I a curious if the coyotes) will howl back. Course they might run it to see what is up which might work to my advantage as well. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

Later,
Dan

[Bird]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
In NC there is not closed season on coyotes. I need to call and see if I can shoot them at night and shine 'em

[/ QUOTE ]

Let us know what you find out. I'm not sure, but I think since they're considered varmints instead of game, you can dispose of coyotes and feral hogs any way any time. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[buck21]

dm i understand what your saying i would be among the first to shoot one of them mostly due to having livestock around(sheep)

[dugem]

Howdy im a newbie on the site......

My advice is that this person needs TWO dogs.

We have both wolves and coyotes were we live...they will co-exist.

Two dogs are enough noise and activity to thwart dang near any advance from a wild critter. Only exception in my experience would be sickness like rabies....

As far as shooting them, you get about one chance most the time, kill them first shot, they dissapear after that.



Cool site

<font color="red">Two dogs are enough noise and activity to thwart dang near any advance from a wild critter. Only exception in my experience would be sickness like rabies....
</font color>

This simply is not true unfortunately. The coyotes around us regularly come right up to the doors of our house and fight with the dogs. I have been woken up more times than I care to count to the dogs going crazy and a pack of coyotes just trying to draw them away from the house. On a clear night with the moon you can just watch them. They will send one to the house to bait the dogs and there will be five or six about a hundred yards off just stalking them.

I have sat and watched before as a pack will try and get a cow and calf away from the herd. The dog or the cow will take after one leaving the calf exposed and if they are away from the herd the other coyotes will move in and try and take the calf. We have a large enough herd that they usually can't get them before a bull or another mama sees them and charges after them.

The dogs do not threaten the coyotes in anyway unfortunately. I have a gun at every door in my house. This winter I've killed 12 of them just from the doorways of my house. Two days ago I was headed out the front door and two of them were trotting down my driveway. They were so NOT afraid of me that they just turned and looked at and stood there about 30 yards away. I ran back up to the house and grabbed the gun inside the door and shot both of them. The first one just looked at me and never moved. The second one took off when I shot the first one and I got him about 150 yards away.

[tbolt]

The problem here is seeing them. Oh you can hear em but you can't shoot what you can't see and they seem to be real smart at staying hid. We have tried electronic calls at night with a spotlight which is illegal BTW but I really don't care about that, it just doesnt work very well. They tend to come near but not out in the open. I have set live traps and caught foxes ,coons, possum, and even a bobcat but no coyote. I have heard thatyou can tie a piece of fishing line up about head high on a small limb with a stainless steel fish hook tied to the other end with a piece of meat on the hook and theyll jump up, grab meat, and be hanging there for you to shoot the next morning. I have been tempted to try it but I'm afraid of catching someones pet dog or hunting dog in it. I'm all for killing them regardless of the method, just don't see to many to try and shoot

[dugem]

We must have shy coyotes, /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif You can hear them often, see them in a deerstand now and then but if they see you they dissapear. Fact is ive seen more timber wolves than coyotes and both of them live species live here. My neighbor took a coyote off the edge of my hayfield with a bow last year. It was eaten up with mange, can that stuff end up on a dog or cat?

[mffarmall]

I also have a fat black lab that can eat an entire rabbit in a few bites. Sometimes I find coyoties out at my place. I take shoots at them. They are mostly out in the early morning and at dusk. I have found three things that work besides a head shot. Go outside and shoot off a few rounds when they are calling out, walk around at these times and make your presence know. I also go around my yard and fence line and take a leak. It lets them know that this is marked territory. Paps Blue Ribbon can last for weeks on a fence. I also set up a radio and play it at night if they are coming around a lot. It throws them off and covers any noice I make getting outside.

[mffarmall]

Did I mention that my lab is fat.

[Fred]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Paps Blue Ribbon can last for weeks on a fence

[/ QUOTE ]

PBR would last forever at my place /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Pat]

Keep time of PBR changes after "certain" natural processing.

In 6-7 years I have seen exactly 2 live coyotes on my property (160 acres.) One was several hundred yds away and seemed to see me but then trotted out of sight into cover. The other was just walking through tall grass on a converging course with me and a bud. I saw it first and it was several seconds later when our converging course brought us to within 25 feet of each other before the coyote looked my way and then he shifted gears to "lope" not dead run, just lope and eventully was out of sight in the tall grass. I shoot beaver and armadillo (at least I try) on sight, when able, but coyotes haven't done anything to me that I know of so I didn't WHUP OUT MY .45 and drop Wiley.

I like to listen to Wiley and his choir, them along with the bull frogs (that I used to shoot by the dozen for food) and bob white quail which I like to hear (and used to shoot.)

I have no problem with folks who have an actual problem with coyotes doing whatever is required to solve the problem, I just don't happen to have a problem with coyotes, yet. Later when I establish ducks and geese in the ponds nearest the house we'll see how this TRUCE lasts.

Oh, by the way... Stray dogs and pet dogs allowed to roam will pack up and do much more damage to cattle and calving cows than coyotes. The typical response to a dog wandering into a pasture around here, if noticed, is a bullet.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[brownmule]

last week we were at the farm camping, doing farm work, i went out to the truck after dark to get somthing out shined the light had 5 sets of eyes looking at me! not far from the camper. thought at first they were deer, got doug to come out and ck it out. usally by the time the camper door slams the deer are gone but these glowing eyes were still there,setting in a line on the hill side one was taller. had a crappie light and no shot gun.. doug fired of a round in the air w/ the 9mm which is very loud. they just blinked and set right there.. ok now im freaked out a little bit! i figured they would run.. he shot in there direction, the big one went some where, but 4 still stay right there after a couple rounds they went back up in the woods. next day we came home and got something with a little more kick and longer range. we have one of our highland cows getting ready to have a baby in the next month.. DNR told us to shot every one we see. i dont want them sneaking around near us or our cows.. camping has just became a little creepie! LOL Rose /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

[Pat]

Rose, You neglected to drop the other shoe... So what critters were they or do you actually know? Typically we have more problems with pet dogs packing up and getting after stock. Not much problem with coyotes although a lot of folks blame them for the results they see when it was dogs.

Feral pigs (not Federal!) have been sighted near here for some time but mostly south of the South Canadian river in our area (Over a mile away.) Now they are north of the river and signs have been spotted all around us so no doubt we have or will soon have pigs to deal with. With luck maybe the mountain lions will eat some.

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif Pat /forums/images/icons/smile.gif